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Warning: Troll Alert

Post by webslave » Wed May 26, 2010 9:58 am

DISCLAIMER: I do not speak for David Wise or represent him, and I am not connected in any way to him or his clinic, and likewise David Wise does not speak for me.

The updated content for this thread is now at http://www.charlesbkramer.info

http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/images/charles.b.kramer.attorney.jpg This is an alert to the pelvic pain community. I suppose in every large group of people you will always get a few really bad eggs. Well, we have one. His name is Charles Bernard Kramer (aka Charles B. Kramer or CBK, a self-employed, part-time copyright/trademark attorney) of New York (email addresses charles.b.kramer@gmail.com and blue.mirror01@gmail.com ). Kramer likes to have vendettas against people. He develops irrational grudges and becomes deeply embittered. Then he trolls from site to site on the internet, using multiple accounts and identities, and proxy servers, to attack his "evil" enemies. A few years ago his target was the PNE (pudendal nerve entrapment) sites, and he was banned repeatedly by their forums (proof below), after harassing their members by email. Now it's our turn. He's posted numerous anonymous messages on the internet, YouTube videos, and multiple reviews at Amazon under different names, attacking and libelling chronicprostatitis.com, me (the site's webmaster), and everything to do with Dr David Wise, his clinics, and his books ... and he even takes a few shots at trigger point therapy! His tirades make liberal use of the words "fraud", "quack", "charlatan", "thief" and "scam" when describing decent, honest people. And he uses his status as an attorney to bully and threaten anyone who objects.

My opinion of this troubled man is that he is really quite disturbed (he's even described himself on other forums as "a crank" who is "very bitter" and has a "bad attitude"). I urge him to get professional psychological help. He's been stalking me, emailing me with threats (using his real name), and trying to dig into my life, since 2005, and he is still obsessed and angry about everyone and everything. Because he was banned from this site a few years ago (for transgressing the forum rules repeatedly), he's really had a huge grudge against me in particular, and now he's expanded his obsession to include David Wise.

Both I and Dr Wise have sought legal advice on this issue, and we are in contact with the owners of the other forums that were used to post the libel. Unfortunately, some of them —especially the forums espousing the controversial "nerve entrapment" surgery — have not responded by taking action against him because they see this site as a competitor and tacitly approve of what he is doing. [2013 edit: two of these sites have now thankfully closed :smile: ]

Charles B. Kramer is easy to spot because he always uses the same arguments — a mixture of half-truth, distortions, assumptions and outright lies. I'll summarise them here so you can recognize them when you see them:

CLAIM: David Wise is not a MD, only a PhD in Sociology, and therefore should not be treating people

David Wise is a Clinical Psychologist, so of course he has no medical degree. He has a PhD in Sociology as well as board certification in Clinical Psychology. A person with a medical degree would probably not have been able to think outside the box enough to formulate the W-A protocol. So his lack of a medical degree is a plus. It enabled him to find new answers instead of the same old failed answers of the past. The purely medical approach has failed utterly for the last 50 years! This is not a medical problem (ie treatable by drugs and surgery), it's a psychoneuromuscular problem.

Wise's California psychology license number is PSY4050. He's been licensed as a psychologist in California since 1973, approximately 37 years. He gives courses to other psychologists for their continuing education so that they can fulfil their continuing education requirements and renew their licenses. He could never have worked at Stanford and seen patients without being a licensed psychologist. He received a Ph.D. in sociology at the University of California, Berkeley and, like others at the time, he was in graduate school with a Ph.D. in a social science and so fulfilled the very rigorous requirements of the State of California for psychologists, and was eligible to take the boards and become a psychologist, and did so. He has done approximately 20,000 hours of psychotherapy. He is part of an interdisciplinary team (psychologist, physical therapist, urologist) that treats the condition.

CLAIM: chronicprostatitis.com removes posts critical of the Wise-Anderson (W-A) protocol

As for me removing negative comments about the W-A protocol: it's a lie. I have never deleted a post made by an ex-patient, meant specifically to criticize the W-A protocol. In fact, I don't think I've ever deleted a report by an ex-patient of any doctor, and wouldn't, unless they were frankly libellous. I regard such reports as very valuable. Wise cannot help everyone, and we should expect some disappointed patients. Not many so far! Other claims directed at me in particular are that I have edited Wikipedia to exclude everything other than material that supports trigger point treatment (a complete lie), that I set up http://www.ucpps.org to support the Wise-Anderson protocol (obviously a lie, just look at the site's content, which has never changed), and that I have used an alias to register my sites (this last accusation based on a 1-letter typo!)

CLAIM: Charles B. Kramer describes the W-A protocol as a "simple cure-all solution"

The supposedly "simple" solution is actually underpinned by extremely complex medicine, namely the HPA axis and its connection to stress and stress hormones. CPPS patients are known to have low cortisol levels, and this can be caused by stress. Cortisol is involved in muscle tension, muscle contraction and relaxation, predisposing to the formation of trigger points. Some of the substances produced by the adrenal gland also determine an individual's pain perception threshold and can sensitize nerve endings, causing the perception of pain induced by stimuli which are normally non-painful (a phenomenon known as allodynia). So stress, a psychological phenomenon most aptly treated by a psychologist, is a big part of CPPS.

CLAIM: David Wise is supportive if you report steady progress, but "dismissive" if you do not.

I have seen absolutely no evidence of this, ever. Nobody has reported this on the forum. In fact, people have said how warm and approachable he is, if anything.

CLAIM: "No research to support" anxiety/MTrP treatment

There are tons of research supporting the various aspects of the W-A protocol. Just look at our research forum, see all the studies linking stress to disease, linking nerves and nerve cross-talk to pelvic pain syndromes, linking anxiety to CPPS and BPS/IC. What about the recent paper "Pathophysiology of pelvic floor hypertonic disorders", by gynecologist Charles Butrick - founding member and board director of the International Pelvic Pain Society, that makes the link between muscular tension and pelvic pain? What about Dimitrakov's and Anderson's work linking low cortisol to pelvic pain? The claim that there is no research to support the W-A protocol merely shows an ignorance of recent science.

Update: see the latest research supporting the Wise-Anderson Protocol presented at the 2010 American Urological Association meeting:
Intensive Physiotherapy And Cognitive Behavior Clinic Treatment For Chronic Prostatitis/Chronic Pelvic Pain Syndrome

CLAIM: Rodney Anderson has retired from Stanford.

Anderson has Professor Emeritus status at Stanford and is still active in urology, publishing his most recent paper in 2009 [update: new paper in 2013]. Anderson still has an office at Stanford as well.

CLAIM: The protocol is not part of Stanford's Urology department

It was never claimed to be part of Stanford's Urology department. This is a straw man argument. When the Wise-Anderson Protocol started, Anderson was part of this Urology department and and Wise worked at Stanford seeing patients referred from the Urology department. That's where the Protocol was developed and that's how got its "Stanford" name. Now that Wise no longer works there, they prefer the name Wise-Anderson Protocol.

CLAIM: No doctor from Stanford has ever offered a testimonial to the book

The co-author of the HEADACHE IN THE PELVIS is a Professor Emeritus of Urology from Stanford, which makes further endorsement from that University unnecessary and superfluous. Another straw man argument.

CLAIM: The name and location of David Wise's clinic is somehow suspicious

The implication is because clinic seminars are held at the Flamingo Conference Resort & Spa (rated 4.2 out of 5 by over 800 Expedia users), and not in a hospital setting, it cannot be worthwhile, which is clearly complete nonsense. Doctors and hospitals have been miserably ineffective at treating pelvic pain syndromes, and still are. Charles B. Kramer seems to be unhappy because there are no operating rooms, scalpels and complex machines with blinking lights! :roll:

One is reminded of the machines that go "Ping" a la Monty Python

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CLAIM: The W-A studies are not "controlled" studies meaning they did not have placebo arms. They are therefore not reliable.

It is impossible to have a placebo/sham for intrarectal massage, so a placebo-controlled study is not readily achievable. Does it mean they are therefore not reliable? No. It simply means they were not placebo controlled, which means they are less reliable than a placebo-controlled study. In an ideal world, we'd have a placebo-controlled study, but since that is well-nigh impossible, there is no point in carping about the results we do have. And BTW the results were published in the best peer-reviewed journals in urology, so we can rest assured they are dependable studies.

CLAIM: The book's Amazon reviews are all written by me or David Wise

Absolute rubbish, and what's more we know that many (all?) of the negative reviews are in fact written by Charles B. Kramer under different guises. Kramer has numerous accounts on other website forums, and the admins there have noted that he uses proxies as well (different ISPs and IPs). This is his modus operandi. One of the negative reviews, making all the same trumped-up charges, was written under his real name, "C. Kramer". The other negative reviews mostly come from people who all have the same profile: joined up within days of each other, made one or two short complimentary reviews of various books, then straight across to Wise's books to make long, viciously critical reviews. Unfortunately, Amazon is open to this sort of abuse. Here is one of his many Amazon reviews, posted laboriously on two separate sites, amazon.com and amazon.ca, on different dates and under different names:

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Here he posts obsessively on another country's Amazon site, as "Cholly" (Charlie):

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As someone commented to me: "What kind of friggin' kook goes from site to site posting hate speech under different names?"

Kramer uses many identities on Amazon to post reviews (on non-verified purchases) of Wise's books. Here's another example, "Zilina":

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So here we have 2 apparently separate people doing a highly unusual thing: posting a negative review on an Amazon site, and then surfing across to another country's Amazon site to post it again, weeks apart. This is almost certainly the same person at work. There are many examples of Kramer doing this.


CLAIM: David Wise deletes negative Amazon reviews of his books

Kramer also claims that Wise deletes negative Amazon reviews. He is surely aware that only Amazon can delete reviews, and they will do so if the review falls outside their rather strict guidelines, which for instance prohibit commenting on other reviews visible on the page. But never mind, he's posted on at least 6 forums that Wise deletes all the negative reviews, and nobody has challenged that claim, until now, when I reveal it to be yet another bald-faced lie from Kramer.

CLAIM: W-A protocol success stories are fabrications

We've had plenty of success stories at our forum, posted by people who have verifiable identities via PayPal, so there is no question about their veracity.

CLAIM: Charles B. Kramer claims he is an ex-patient of Dr Wise

He isn't, take my word for it. Dr Wise has not told me this (and wouldn't disclose private details to me anyway), but it can be deduced from material Charles B. Kramer has posted elsewhere. :sad: He makes the dumb mistake of posting that he'd just called the Wise clinic to ask for prices, then posted the next day claiming that he is an ex-patient himself. Oops. Then he posted the following day to say he'd spoken to an ex-patient who'd told him this and that, all of which he'd have known if he'd attended himself. He's not very bright.

See below for further proof.

CLAIM: What are trigger points anyway? They don't even exist. And if they do exist, pressure is not the way to treat them. And why don't many doctors know about or believe they exist? Why don't they get trained in TrP treatment? It's not convincing and must be a scam.

It's not part of a doctor's standard training because it is seen as physiotherapy (physical therapy), another field. Today, much treatment of trigger points and their pain complexes are handled by myofascial trigger point therapists, massage therapists, physical therapists, osteopaths, occupational therapists, myotherapists, Certified Athletic Trainers, some naturopaths, chiropractors, dentists and acupuncturists, and other hands-on somatic practitioners who have had experience or training in the field of neuromuscular therapy (NMT). Among physicians, typically only physiatrists (physicians specializing in physical medicine and rehabilitation) are well versed in trigger point diagnosis and therapy.

Trigger points are relatively new in medicine. Doctors are extremely conservative. I have medical textbooks, published recently, that lack all sorts of modern discoveries and research. An example is CFS, which was, until recently, viewed as nonsense by the majority of doctors. Now it's mainstream medicine. Go figure. It took many years for the medical profession to accept that most gastric ulcers are caused by bacteria. If you set as your benchmark a wide acceptance by the conservative medical profession, you'll wait another 50 years. Most people have found that physical therapists know things, and can do things, that doctors do not know, and cannot do. Why is that? Even though these things can make enormous differences to our comfort and ease great pain, doctors are not able to do them and do not know about them. It's like that with myofascial trigger points (MTrPs) at this stage.

As for whether they exist or not and how best to treat them, I refer you to the recent research in this regard.

CLAIM: Webslave is in cahoots with Dr Wise, in fact, he's probably Dr Wise in disguise!

I have no connection to the Wise-Anderson clinic. I have never been there, and never met David Wise. We have spoken on the phone a handful of times, and exchanged emails. I get a small payment for hosting his schedule of clinics on the site. Period. Oh, and I think he's a great bloke. :smile:

---

That's most of the arguments he presents, but there are many more, including complaints about the cost of Wise's clinic, etc ad nauseam. As someone else commented, his list of complaints reads like the Unabomber's Manifesto. :lol:

Isn't it amazing how much damage and confusion one internet nutcase on the rampage can create? Welcome to the Digital Age. :facepalm:

I've finally posted this message because it's clear, after 5 years, that this angry, embittered and frankly unhinged individual is not going to go away, and we have to deal with the problem he presents. If he contacts you, or you see one of his messages, you are now prepared.

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert

Post by Sherradin » Wed May 26, 2010 10:50 am

Whatever he claims it doesn't matter. I flew from Australia, took a leap of faith and it has so far well and truly paid off. And this is with a protocol originally designed for men. I think David Wise has put together a protocol that gets to the complicated mix of the problem. Why? Because he's been there and lived it himself. I just wish more women could see that there really isn't a lot of difference once you have pelvic neuromuscular dysfunction..they probably will in time when the protocol becomes more mainstream.

As for Kramer...he's a goose and I am sorry you guys have to try and manage that situation as it takes away from the good work you're doing, which I believe must take incredible amounts of patience to hear the same broken record of insecurities and anxieties over and over with each newbie who was like I was a few years ago..out of my mind with worry and pain and peeing non stop.
CPP since 2005. Prior to CPP always overly fit and active. I am female. Had two natural births: singleton 1998 and twins 2000. 2002 emergency back surgery - L5S1 herniation. Then recurring UTIs. Usual antibiotic overload. Then constant debilitating burning bladder and reaction to many foods. Australian Pain Clinic 2007. Turning point was Dec 2009 Attended Wise Clinic in Santa Rosa USA.
Was helped by strict diet but now eating normally after years of restricted diet - wonderful. Helped by: stretching,relaxation, yoga, trigger point, warm baths. Worsened by: stress, sitting, abdominal or glute exercises and salicylates
Medication: Now off all pain clinic meds no more Endone or Elavil only Lyrica 50 mg as Dec 2010 just reherniated L5S1disc and had discectomy. Its taken years but I feel I am over it.

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert

Post by webslave » Wed May 26, 2010 9:41 pm

Thanks, Sherradin, your support is appreciated.

The bottom line is this: I support what Wise is doing because I believe it is the right thing. Before he came along, there was really nothing. All we had was quercetin (which definitely DID help me symptomatically, and that's why I support that too -- thank you Daniel Shoskes!). 99.9% of men with this thing ended up going from uro to uro, gobbling antibiotics, sometimes for years and years! It ended in suicide for many men. I know that's true because I've had several private messages over the years from men who told me they were on the verge of killing themselves before finding this site.

But I am not only recommending Prosta-Q and the W-A protocol. There are many other skilled people out there, for instance Marilyn Freedman in New York to name but one. Members here frequently recommend PTs who have helped them, and we encourage men to seek local treatment as a first option. But I do think that what Wise offers is unique though, because it's a combination of :
  1. tailored, targeted psychotherapy by a cured ex-sufferer with published studies on the topic
  2. expert physiotherapy by a superb therapist
  3. training in all the aspects of treating the disorder (including intrarectal TrP treatment)
  4. immersion therapy and paradoxical relaxation (a variant of progressive relaxation)
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is the only clinic where you can get all this in one package.

So are trigger points real? You bet they are. I know that from treating the ones in my neck that cause me headaches. Do we get TrPs in the small muscles that line the inside of our pelvises? You bet we do. I know that from all the case histories we have here, to say nothing of my own experience, long before all this was known, when I stuck an implement up my rear end and massaged the deep pelvic muscles, obtaining sudden and dramatic relief.

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert

Post by scotsman » Thu May 27, 2010 6:55 am

Mark

You are absolutely correct - the Wise-Anderson clinic is the only place I'm aware of that does the whole package. This is my 7th year of having CPPS - by using the physio/relaxation regime I'm close to 90% better and the last 10% is because I don't do the relaxation work enough to break the tension cycle. I've lost count of the number of posts and sufferers I've read about on this forum and others, all trying different things and THE ONLY THING which has brought continued relief has been the relaxation/trigger-point combination. The issue though is that you need to do it 'right' and I think a large proportion don't do it right, mostly with getting the wrong physiotherapist and also not committing enough to the regime. This is not a quick fix but I think some people try it, don't do it right and then feel they can tick it off the list as not working. It's like dieting, most people can't lose the weight. I tried for years, couldn't do it, didn't work for me, but when I committed to it fully then I lost 120 lbs.

Doing the relaxation/physio treatment path is not easy - it takes commitment and dedication - which is why I think the Wise-Anderson clinic is a good boot camp. It puts you in a controlled environment for a week where you can really see that this approach works. Bit like going to a fat club where they control what you eat and how much exercise you do. However, coming out of the clinic it's hard to keep the same level of dedication. I've managed to keep up the physio side, but I'm still falling down on the relaxation side. However, from the clinic I can see what benefits doing the relaxation fully can bring, so I need to up my game. Reality is though that my symptoms have reduced to such a level that real life time pressures have bumped the relaxation time down the list. I'll get there though.

I do find it amazing that people out there still don't get that triggerpoints are real - but then some people are just plain stupid.

It's a shame the internet is full of nutters but I don't think we should worry about spending too much time and effort combating them, as I think any damage they do is very minimal and it just gives them the focus they crave.

Cheers
Richard.
Not medical advice: Read my progress to date : Read about my W-A clinic visit

Age: 41 CPPS: 7 Yrs Recovery Status: 90% Symptoms: Pain around perineum Makes Worse: Tension, sitting Makes Better: Stretching, triggerpoint therapy, relaxation, Tramadol (50mg)

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert

Post by webslave » Sun May 30, 2010 2:17 pm

Thanks, Richard, you raise good points.

David Wise put up a page at his website refuting all this nonsense, and I've copied it here:
http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/response.html

Is my thesis that Charles B. Kramer is a troll and someone who bears unreasonable grudges correct? Have other people had this experience with him, besides our forum and the PNE forums? As you'd expect, the answer is YES.

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert Update

Post by webslave » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:03 pm

Just a few more details about the obsessive troll, Charles B. Kramer, erstwhile trademark, copyright & patents attorney of New York, and serial liar. I allege above that he also went berserk about the wacky "pudendal nerve entrapment" (PNE) theory. Here is the proof from a (now defunct) PNE forum:

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The admins there also stated:
PNE Forum Admin Greg Thibeaux wrote:To ALL TIPNA Members:
We would like you to know that over the last few weeks, Charles has registered on TIPNA multiple times using alias' and that this trolling behavior continues. These alias' have included ZeroGravity, PingPing, SriHabna, SuzyKreplach, and most recently SheilaPapalis, Pooh, and PuPoo.

When we determine that a new User is Charles, we ban the Username. If we can identify a unique IP Address, it is banned as well. We are sorry that this situation continues and we are doing all that we can to address it.
Note that Kramer's website registration gives his email address as "northernspy1@aol.com". Please note that he used the primary username of "northernspy" at the TIPNA forum, where he caused havoc. So the link between Charles B. Kramer and obsessive, crazy trolling behaviour is firmly established.

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Kramer has also posted, on another forum, that he was treated by "Wise protocol massage girls" who used "Wise-Anderson style massage therapy (entertaining, but not helpful)". Naturally, this massage parlor "treatment" qualifies him to claim attendance at the W-A Clinic and makes him a de facto expert on the protocol. :crazy:

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Perhaps he's still posting 5 years after being "cured" because the whole "cured by hernia surgery" thing is just an elaborate ruse to distance himself from "Charlie", one of his alter egos, who is still in pain:

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If you need more proof that the obsessive troll Charles B. Kramer is behind all this, here's the clincher: Kramer created an anonymous YouTube channel called ""PelvicPainTruth", which was deleted as libelous by YouTube. So he went back and created another channel called "VeritasPelvic", pretending to be a "group of people" who had attended the Wise-Anderson Clinic. This time the almost-identical videos skirt libel as finely as possible, suggesting all sorts of wrongdoing but not directly accusing. These cowardly videos attack Wise, and now me too, and are full of lies and conjecture. One of them contains a lawyerly analysis of David Wise's Internal Wand patent (the video has since been removed, but I kept a copy). Remember that Kramer's only real-world skill is as a trademarks & copyright attorney who would be highly familiar with patents. "Veritas" is a lawyerly latin term found in many legal phrases. I rest my case.

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It goes on and on ....

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And on and on ...

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Yet more proof (do you really need it?):

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But would an attorney know anything about making videos? Yes, this one certainly does:

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Charles B. Kramer has also admitted numerous times that he knows nothing about medicine (which does not stop him constantly giving bad medical advice!):

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The megatroll Charles B. Kramer and his continuing libels and lies on the internet, including his latest efforts, are further discussed in our member forums (registration required). Register and read more if this topic interests you, or if he has confused you about treatment options.

I hope readers who have pelvic pain appreciate my exposé of this nasty troll. Hopefully I've saved you from following his demented advice or believing his allegations. Meanwhile, on other forums, there are people who are rushing off to have inguinal hernia surgery, urged on by Kramer.

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert Update

Post by neis » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:55 pm

Webslave, I believe he was posting on that other prostatitus site...any idea what happened to that site? It's been offline for a while now.
Age: | Onset Age: | Symptoms: | Helped By: | Worsened By:

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert Update

Post by webslave » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:58 pm

Webslave's Kiss of Death? Who knows, it probably imploded from a surfeit of stupidity. Good riddance. Like all prostatitis forums on the internet other than ours, it was chock-full of misinformation.

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Re: Warning: Troll Alert Update

Post by webslave » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:19 pm

Incidentally, in 2010 Kramer wrote to me and absurdly claimed his total innocence in the above matters. He clearly underestimates the observational powers of other people.

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One more thing everyone needs to know. There is a female IC/pelvic pain website, which will remain unnamed, where the (female) webmaster publicly criticises David Wise and the Wise Anderson Protocol.

However, what this person does not disclose is that she told me, during a phone call, that she had called Wise and asked him for a commission for each patient she referred to him. He refused, which enraged her. Her website is a big business from her point of view, and she has employees to pay, and it's all about the dollar bill. :money: So ever since then she's had her knife out for him. Hell hath no fury, etc.

I, on the other hand, run this website as a time consuming hobby and public service, as I've explained in another thread. I employ nobody. And I don't get commissions for anything (except Amazon affiliate sales, currently earning less than $10 a month). :eh: I guess that makes me a bit stupid in her greedy eyes!

I'm seeing a lot of this sort of frankly unethical behaviour lately, and I'm deeply saddened and disappointed by it. I was friends with this woman for long time and supported her in her struggle to get her website off the ground. :sad2: Her post against Wise is little more than payback and an attempt to extort money from him, the way the mob does in a protection racket.

It's a harsh world out there!

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