Dr. Song In China (thread #2)

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Dell4444
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Dr. Song In China (thread #2)

Post by Dell4444 »

I know that this Doctor was addressed a long time ago on this site, but I am just wondering if anybody on this forum has visited Dr. Song, and could tell their story?
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Post by scoobysnacks »

I can tell you no one who is informed from this site will be visiting Dr. Song in China. I dont know the topic well, but I have seen enough to not waste my time with his "theories."

If you suffer from pelvic myoneuropathy you would be best advised to follow the program in AHIP and seek out Dr Wise and Tim Sawyer for help.

Good Luck,

Ss
Age:29 | Onset Age: 25.5 | Symptoms: Initially burning in prostate/perineum, burning in urethra, uncontrollable muscle contraction before urinating, dual ache in groin, left testicle pain, feeling of golf ball in rectum, soarness in rectum, and muscle spasms, now mainly very mild urinary tract inflammation, burning mildly after ejaculation, some days after physical activity involuntary mild muscle contraction before urinating | Helped By: .5 mg of Ativan, Aleve (naproxen), quercetin, alcohol in large quantities (vodka and soda), stretching, walking, internal massage the perineum area and levators. | Worsened By: sitting, weightraining, jogging, coffee, caffeine in general, alcohol bothered me at first, overdoing sex
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Post by mach5 »

I would say, dont be too hasty to judge.

TCM has been around for a long time and has an amazingly good track record at curing many diseases. Sure, it doesn't fix everything, but neither has western medicine.

My disclaimer is I am an licensed acupuncturist and herbalist in BC (Canada) and working on my Dr. of TCM program (5 years masters program). But I still believe in western medicine, physio and the Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol.

When doing the SP, I talked to Tim about acupuncture and physio for the treatment of CPPS. There are many things that have yet to be tried in the combination of these fields.

In fact next week I am going to a seminar being held by one of the most prominent TCM doctors in Europe on mens health, and he is doing an entire days lecture on chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome and Chinese medicine. I will take good notes, and try and explain as much as I can here. Hopefully in the next year or two I will be taking on my own patients with chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome and doing some studies. I would like to keep in contact with Tim and also apply his methods to my own. I like all of us, want to see people getting better any way they can. TCM, acu, physio or whatever works.

I hope everyone can keep an open mind, because I am going to need all the help I can get!

There is always more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

I do agree from personal experience right now, that the SP is the best way to go (for now).
Age: 30 | Onset Age:19 | Symptoms: Urethral burning pain (tip of penis), some reddening (inflammation) of the urethral opening intermittently, rectal pain off and on. | Helped By: Avoiding aggravating factors, Wise-Tapes, Mild PT stretches, Benzos, acupuncture and Chinese Herbal medicine | Worsened By: Urination, Excessive Sex, Not enough exercise, Stress, Alcohol, Caffeine, Cold Weather.
Typical Disclaimer: My above post is not medical advice.
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Post by webslave »

Dr Song is not an acupuncturist. He injects the prostate.
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Post by scoobysnacks »

exactly
Age:29 | Onset Age: 25.5 | Symptoms: Initially burning in prostate/perineum, burning in urethra, uncontrollable muscle contraction before urinating, dual ache in groin, left testicle pain, feeling of golf ball in rectum, soarness in rectum, and muscle spasms, now mainly very mild urinary tract inflammation, burning mildly after ejaculation, some days after physical activity involuntary mild muscle contraction before urinating | Helped By: .5 mg of Ativan, Aleve (naproxen), quercetin, alcohol in large quantities (vodka and soda), stretching, walking, internal massage the perineum area and levators. | Worsened By: sitting, weightraining, jogging, coffee, caffeine in general, alcohol bothered me at first, overdoing sex
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Post by james-d »

Just my two cents.

I had my local uro follow Dr. Bahn's protocol for prostate injection and I have been in excellent health since completing my treatment.

Search my posts for details and ups and downs of process - it does hurt like hell to have it done.

I know less then nothing about Dr Song and can not speak of him.

But - if you live in the US and are considering this approach - there is no reason to travel to China (except that it is a beautiful country with a great history).
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Thanks

Post by mach5 »

Nice. Thanks for letting me know he is not a TCM doc. :-D
Age: 30 | Onset Age:19 | Symptoms: Urethral burning pain (tip of penis), some reddening (inflammation) of the urethral opening intermittently, rectal pain off and on. | Helped By: Avoiding aggravating factors, Wise-Tapes, Mild PT stretches, Benzos, acupuncture and Chinese Herbal medicine | Worsened By: Urination, Excessive Sex, Not enough exercise, Stress, Alcohol, Caffeine, Cold Weather.
Typical Disclaimer: My above post is not medical advice.
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Post by Dell4444 »

I have to say guys, that I have spoken to many different patients of Dr. Songs on the phone and they believe that they have been cured. I believe there are different kinds of origins of chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome and that some are a result of infection. Thus, I think that you are doing a disservice to many by dismissing the discussion of it completely.

The only negative information I have seen on Dr. Song is that he wasn't able to cure one patient (who actually did have his chlamydia cured). I would keep a more open mind, as we are all looking to get better.
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Post by webslave »

Dell, we can only go by what is posted here, and unlike the people who say they were cured by Dr Song, the man posting here is definitely a real patient with whom I have had private email conversations. The "cured" patients were non-existent when he was in China, strangely. Moreover there have been persistent posters, writing from Chinese IP addresses, who have tried to promote Song on Usenet for years, so there is a history of duplicity. If you follow their posting history, you'll find that they return periodically to any open prostatitis newsgroup with similar stories, similar diction, similar writing style. In addition I have noticed that some of the people discussing the possibility of visiting Song are a little too ready to believe in him, a little too ready to suspend disbelief in someone who has not published any study himself, and uses unknown substances to inject into the prostate. The enormous fees he charges are readily accepted, even glossed over, by these supposed patients and patients-to-be, and if the people who are supposedly planning to go and see him are asked what else they have already tried, they either avoid the question or, if their posting history is inspected, are found to have tried no other treatment, which is extremely strange, and means they are almost certainly not genuine posters at all.

Now we have seen how this one real, definite ex-patient claims that Song sends stalking horses to post in forums and recruit patients to Changsha, so I tend to give that some credence. He was there, he spoke to the other patients, and saw the lay of the land first hand, and in the end he was bribed by Song to shut up. What better way to recruit patients than to pose as one yourself, one thinking of planning to go and see Dr Song? This allows you to report on all the wonderful things others have (supposedly) told you without raising suspicion.

You may be genuine, Dell4444. You may really have spoken to some strangers over the phone, or even in person, who told you great things about the treatment in Changsha. But you may also be getting duped. A correspondent of mine reported to me that there is a giant pharma factory in Changsha that manufactures a drug, a Chinese herbal extract called "Chuanshentong", apparently designed to be injected into prostates. See their study, from the same town that Dr Song hails, here. This drug is big business or it wouldn't be trumpeted in press releases emanating from Changsha the way it is. And drug companies all over the world use a variety of techniques to promote the use of their products, luring patients to use them; this we already know. When you hunt ducks you use decoys. Is hunting patients all that different?
song-decoy.jpg
song-decoy.jpg (4.72 KiB) Viewed 300 times
So be on the lookout for decoys.

Now note that we do not actually know what Chuanshentong is, do we? It could be anything at all. My source also reports that apparently when confronted with this, Song denies using Chuanshentong. But if he doesn't use the supposedly great anti-CPPS drug from his own home town, what does he use? If he is using ordinary western medicines, why pay north of US$20K to see him, when intraprostatic injections of antibiotics and steroids can be arranged here in the West for a fraction of the price? Something is not right with this picture, clearly.
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Post by Dell4444 »

Webslave--Thank you for responding with such a detailed answer. I would have to dispute some of your arguments though.

1. The patient who wrote you the email saying he was not cured by Dr. Song does say that DR. SONG cured his chlamidya.

2. There has only been one patient in the history of this internet forum and all predecessor forums who claims he has been to Dr. Song and has negative things to say about him. I would imagine that there would be many more people who would warn future potential patients if it were a scam. Oh, and by the way there are many verifiable people who have posted that Dr. Song was able to help them.

3. The "plant" that you refer to, Duncan, who wrote about Dr. Song (the one that had a Chinese IP address (actually it is Hong Kongese if you want to really get the facts straight)) never said he was a westerner. He said he was a patient who was cured by Song's treatment, and was encouraging people to go, so what.

5. Your "one real, definite ex-patient" DOES NOT claim that Song sends stalking horses to post in forums and recruit patients to Changsha. In fact, he claims that Dr. Song (who cured his chlamidya) refunded his money contingent on him not continuing to post his poor results from treatment.

6. I have spoken to three different people on the phone who HAVE been treated by Dr. Song, and all three of them had tried previous treatments/doctors that I was able to VERIFY because I am currently being treated by one of the same doctors that they had tried previously.

7. Your vigorous attempts at discrediting the notion that chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome is caused by infection is wierd. Why are you so adament in attacking the idea?

8. You can accuse me of being a plant if you want. I am somebody who is not cured, has tried a number of remedies, who believes that my chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome is caused by infection, and who is just trying to help others who are suffering from the same issues as me.

9. Finally, Dr. Song's treatment is NOT available in the US. While there are doctors who practice prostatic injection in the US, their methodolody and approach to treatment is VERY different. Dr. Song's treatment approach, as detailed on his website http://www.sxpclinic.com makes sense to me.

10. If it doesn't make sense to you, then maybe you and I have different problems. I just think that you are doing a grave disservice to the sufferers of prostatitis who may actually benefit from Dr. Song's treatment.
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Post by webslave »

Dell4444, are you planning to go to Changsha?
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Post by Dell4444 »

I am, in February.
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Post by Dell4444 »

In fact, I am going in February, and I promise you this--If it turns out to be a scam, I will write a very detailed discussion of my experience and post it for all to see. Unlike your friend, if I have a negative experience, I won't keep it a secret. I'll post it for the whole world. In fact, I can't believe that anybody who has been through this could actually keep quiet after quitting his job, dropping $20k, and going to China for a month. If this is a scam, I will be livid and will share my story with anybody who's interested.
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Post by webslave »

Then we look forward to you returning here and updating us on progress. I think the whole thing is fishy and reminds me of scams I have seen in the past, and despite watching the whole prostatitis/CPPS scene like a hawk for over 10 years, I have not heard any truly genuine and honest-sounding appraisals of Dr Song, except from a man I trust who had extremely negative things to say about his treatment there and the experiences of the people there with him. BUT OF COURSE I MAY BE WRONG.

I would appreciate it very much if you would post a blow-by-blow account of your experiences there please, thank you. Please be as honest as you can; your fellow sufferers are relying on you!

:smile:
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Post by Dell4444 »

OK, it's a deal.
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